F**k it.... I relapsed!

[dfitz]

I cannot repeat this enough times....but for anyone who wants to use one opiate or opiate-type substance....be it sub, kratom, etc.....in order to detox off another opiate (short-acting only) the ONLY way to do this really successfully is to make sure you don't take enough for a long enough time that you will end up having to detox off the replacement med and really didn't get anywhere.

What you should do is to only take the bare minimum that will keep you from suffering. If you take enough to feel GOOD.....you've taken too much.
The lower the amount you take and the fewer the days you use it.....the greater your chance is that you will be able to just walk away.

Also....generally speaking.....you can only do this so many times with one particular opiate. For instance, there are MANY who have repeatedly used sub to mask a detox off another opiate.....and eventually they become up-regulated to it simply due to frequency of use.......and from then on....they will have to taper and detox off the sub...no matter how they use it as a detox tool.

But....if you know what you're risking and then use a bit of will-power to limit the up-regulation (by limiting amount and length of time), you CAN literally almost walk away.

[betsky]

@Xzentric

Well we all **ck up once in awhile. (Except myself of course )

You are my "ZEN " master and your journey will have many
Hills and dales. It just takes time and support.
I know you can do this though, one day at a time.
best always
betsky

P.S. @billyboy1965
BUTT HEAD
Bet u thought i forgot

[Indy Girl]

@dfitz thanks for all the warnings about using sub, I'm taking it exactly as prescribed and using it in combination with other meds prescribed by my doc. I have tried to be my own doctor and pharmacist before and it hasn't gotten me anywhere. This time I am listening to a doctor who deals only with substance abuse patients. I also appreciate hearing the real stories from everyone on here so I know that I need to be extra vigilant

-Indy

[sambob]

Subs for a DHC addiction seems a little drastic IMO, seems like it'd be easier to just taper or go cold turkey **** it! Sometimes you gotta man up and ask yourself how much you want it. This addiction things sucks and I'm sick of it, it's ruined my life and I can't take it any more, I hope you find what you are looking for and my heart and compassion goes out to any one that has legitimate pain but can't take PKs b/c they're addicts, it sucks! 24/7 pain sucks, fortunately there are alternatives, seek them out and you will find them. Support groups, yoga and stretching, exercise, non narcotics, etc, don't give up you are in my thoughts @Xzentric !

[Perromaldido]

I have to agree with @sambob . Sub sounds like overkill, especially when in your country the put you on ABSURD high dosages. I kicked a major h habit with 0,2 temgesics. I had to take a whole box - that is 2mg - at first and it worked. Tapering down from 24mg Sub which is a common dosage there AFAIK is harder than what you've been attempting to do.
I was lucky to find a doc who prescribed me 30 boxes a month. When I would go the pharmacy I came out with a huge bag. Look into temmies, they're online. Or if you go the Sub route demand to be put on LIGHT dosages. 2 milles kick a 1gr DHC habit real good.
I have been one year+ with just about 1gr day DHC 120s which came from Spain fast cheap and good, so I know what's it like.

Perromaldido

[shaffekm]

Here's my 2 cents. IMO subs are overkill for a DHC addiction. I'm thinking about switching to DHC to taper off a 200mg a day Oxy habit. Subs are much harder to kick than DHC and the withdrawal lasts much longer. The whole point of subs is to buy time for a heroin user, while they are educated about their addiction. This way they don't have to keep injecting unknown amounts of heroin and chase it all day long. I'm guessing you have a fat bottle of DHC and aren't chasing it all day. Therefore, I'd recommend you simply taper yourself off those, reducing your intake gradually each day. If you can't control it yourself, have a trusted friend hold your medicine and travel to them each day to dose, much like a methadone clinic. I also highly recommend looking into natural remedies to help the body recover faster from PAWS. I've seen quite a few threads on PAWS recovery and what helps. I will find them, when I have more time, and post them for you. Good luck!

hahaha I didn't realize the guy directly above me said the same thing. Must be good advice lol

[dfitz]

I completely agree with everyone saying sub would be overkill....UNLESS you use it very low dose for only a few days AND are not already up-regulated to it due to prior use of it.

And @Indy Girl ...... @Perromaldido is absolutely correct. Be wary of the high doses these doctors put you on. They've been given incorrect info by the big pharma (in this case, Reckitt-Benckiser)

@Perromaldido ~an interesting aspect of this is that while they approved huge doses of sub in the US.....they are dragging their feet (and have been for many years) approving the tiny doses you referred to....that would make sub tapering so much easier. My belief/theory is that it's big pharma (specifically R-B) that's responsible for this as I think temgesic is made by a different company (Shering-Plough?) and that R-B has way more power and influence than S-P does.

Add to that the issue of the US also dragging their feet on britloflex/lofexidine....the safer clonidine specifically for withdrawal.

Hmm....I'm not a conspiracy theorist....but really makes you wonder how much of an agenda they have to help opiate addicts...........OR make it difficult to become ex-opiate addicts.

I'll throw the whole ibogaine issue into this same category too. They could at least have made it legal to do research on it and come up with a safe formulation they could approve.

But then....when it comes to the whole "drug war" issue....it's hard to tell just what the agenda is. Plenty are lining their pockets and want to maintain the status quo. Money rules the world....and creates power and influence. And I suspect there are plenty whose agenda involves not really helping addicts....intentionally....and all related to profit. When you take all 3 into consideration...the temgesic, the britloflex and the ibogaine.....you really see a pattern and it really makes you wonder what their real agenda is.

And I'm guessing you have universal health care where you live? That would make the agenda completely different for the most part.....as it would be all about saving money....not being unduly influenced by the rich and powerful lobbyists of big pharma.

And I'm certainly no expert on this topic. It's just an impression I got over time when I learned about these various meds they seem to want to keep out of the US.

[Perromaldido]

@dfitz Yes here we have the typical European welfare system, public detox clinics cost you NOTHING you have just to go and sign. If you comply and give 'clean' urines they'll allow for take homes even for a full week. They have historically used methadone but they're switching and suggesting subs, although not at US crazy doses. And I'm not into conspiracy
theories either but it's -for me- obvious that the US have set up a well orchestrated mass
addiction policy, enforced by WOD, because that's BIG MONEY, legal and illegal. Just look at the prices for meds you have at legal pharmacies , that doesn't make any sense. Production costs for opiates/benzos are extremely low. It looks to me like a typical milking cow policy.
****em.

Perromaldido

[Indy Girl]

@dfitz my doc put me on Suboxone Sublingual Film 8-2 MG twice a day. Is this considered a high dose? I have no reference point to what is considered a low dose or a high dose.

Thanks
-Indy

[dfitz]

@Indy Girl ~

OK...let me give you some context here....just to give you an idea.
In the UK, they have temgesic (oh, and btw, that 8-2 means 8 mg. of bupe and 2 of naloxone....the opiate-antagonist....so that would be an 8 mg., in terms of the actual opiate part)........and the doses of temgesic are 0.2 mg. and 0.4 mg. And those are regular doses they use over there....I think for pain mainly (and for tapring sub for those who were on maintenance).....but the point is....THOSE are actual dosages they use all the time over there. So compare 0.2 mg. to 16 mg.....and you can see the huge difference.

AND.....when you eventually have to get off it (how long does this sub doc want you to stay on it?)............you will have to taper down to literally microscopic amounts....down to 0.25 mg. I've never seen the new route via sublingual film....have only seen the pills....but it was a huge hassle to try and cut the pills down to 0.25 mg. dosages accurately. Heck, it was hard to cut them into 0.5 mg. accurately. People were advising to crush them and then separate the powder into equal amounts. Can you cut those strips up into accurate smaller doses. If you can, that's wonderful.

In the UK, of course, they have those nice tiny doses of sub (called Temgesic) but they won't approve them here. Gee, I wonder why. They would be fabulous for tapering.

But this is just to give you an idea of how people in the know taper their sub correctly. You have to taper down all the way to 0.25 mg....and fairly gradually. So if you're taking 16 mg. a day......that's 64X that dose, right?

What I advise people to do is to 1) use it first as a low-dose, short-term detox tool. 2) start at 2 mg.....and then wait an hour. 3) if you're still really uncomfortable, take another 1-2 mg. 4) Try to keep it to 2-4 mg. daily, preferably 2......and then the last few days they go down to 0.5 in increments (for a total of 5-7 days, generally.

What were you put on the sub to get off of? You went on sub for an addiction to which opiate?
Because unless someone is taking massive quantities of short-acting opiates....and I mean massively fatal doses......I don't recommend going on any type of opiate maintenance...either sub or methadone.....right off the bat. I'd leave that as a last option and would try using it for just a couple of days at low dose to allow you to kinda skim thru the detox for whatever original opiate you are withdrawing from.

And btw....not only are you gonna have to taper down the dosages.....but your body is going to up-regulate to getting dosed twice a day......and you'll have to add additional steps to increase the dose interval and get it down to once daily during your eventual taper.

If a totally opiate-naive person takes just a tiny crumb of sub.....they vomit, get dizzy and get quite ill. Really shows just how strong the darn stuff is. That Reckitt-Benckiser led doctors to believe that 8 mg. of sub is/was the base dose and the doctors just didn't/don't have a clue how strong this stuff really is.
Oh.....and they also told the docs there would be no withdrawal off it. So a whole lot of sub patients were told it was all in their head for quite some time....and thankfully, the sub docs are finally starting to realize you can't just jump off at 2 mg. but have to taper way below that amount.

And then there was the whole thing about recommending putting addicts on at least enough to be a blocking dose...like they do at methadone clinics....so that if the addict tried to use, nothing will happen. They think they're doing the addict a favor by doing that....and it will accomplish changing your behavior. When the reality is that it is THEM who has you on the REALLY strong opiate in doses much too high.

And....don't feel bad or anything. This is the kinda dose most sub doctors in the US have been putting their patients on for years. That's why when you go to any addiction message boards.....there are tons of people begging for help tapering/detoxing off sub.

ADDED: You absolutely want to find out how long your sub doctor plans to keep you on it and don't let him give you the "we'll see how it goes" stuff. Ask him what length of time most of his patients are on it. That you want a ballpark idea. And then ask him how he tapers.
Because......if what he tells you sounds like it's gonna be too fast or too precipitous....you're gonna want to have a plan in place to 1) start decreasing/tapering on your own when it's getting close to when he generally starts tapering his patient and 2) save the extra to extend your own taper.

[Perromaldido]

Just for completeness of information I should add that temgesics Schering Plough in SO Eu only come in 0,2 format round pills and 5x0,2 vials. Before Subuxone came around we (and all) had subutex 0,4/2/8 pure bupe no nal shit. Eventually they moved to subuxone because there were many crushers around.....It utterly sucks that they took of the 0,4mcg because that helped a lot a tapering down.

Perromaldido

Editing just to add that 0,3 generic temgesics (bupe only) are availble in asia and currently listed by at least by one hystorical legit source. Plus, @Indy Girl , I dont know what you're kicking nor how much of it.... but in my (regretably long) if I was on a one GR Syrian white junk I'd feel safe.
If you let us know what or how much I could give you an educated opinion

[Indy Girl]

@dfitz and @Perromaldido thank you for all of your information! Good stuff

Now for the hard part, what is it that I'm trying to kick...........I'll try to keep this short Well for the last 12-13 years I have been taking opiates for legitimate pain reasons (I'm going to give you guys the run down of everything I've taken, please don't judge me on how I went about getting everything) I've also had numerous surgeries and hospital stays within those years for pain control. It started off as having to take these meds to alleviate the physical pain, but it didn't take long for me to have to take them to alleviate both the physical AND mental pain. Here are the meds that I have used recently and the dose I needed to take each time in order for me to "feel good"
- Hydro, 30 mg (every 3 or 4 hours)
- Oxycodone, 20mg (every 2 or 3 hours)
- Oxicontin, 160mg (every 6 or 7 hours)
- Roxi's, 60mg (every 4 or 5 hours)
- Fent lolly, 1600 mcg (i lolly in combo with 30mg of Roxi)
- Morphine IV, 2mg
- Dilaudid IV, 2 mg (didn't do anything for me so they added 1mg of Morphine)

Those are the most recent meds that I can remember (last 2 months). I have a ridiculously high tolerance. Hope this list helps a little, and please, no judgement

-Indy

Sorry @Xzentric , I hijacked your thread

[Perromaldido]

@Indy Girl . The ''have used recently'' leaves in the dark as to the daily intake of any or a combo of those, say a typical day. You're not an opiate naive that's for sure. If you had all the stuff in a day - and where still alive - I'd ask you what the heck you're doing outpatient. Maybe someone can come up with something valuable but, with that info missing, I'll pass.

Perromaldido

[sophie30]

@Xzentric , I haven't been around a ton, sorry to hear you relapsed and will have to go through all that again, but it happens, and you sure didn't disappoint anyone. This battle is yours alone to fight. I relapsed countless times - to the brink of suicide - before I finally decided to live. You'll get there. In the meantime, we're all here to support you.

[cajunbulldog]

Hey bud every one falls down,now get up get angry and try again.Never give up and you can beat this addiction.

[Xzentric]

@dfitz and @Perromaldido thank you for all of your information! Good stuff

Now for the hard part, what is it that I'm trying to kick...........I'll try to keep this short Well for the last 12-13 years I have been taking opiates for legitimate pain reasons (I'm going to give you guys the run down of everything I've taken, please don't judge me on how I went about getting everything) I've also had numerous surgeries and hospital stays within those years for pain control. It started off as having to take these meds to alleviate the physical pain, but it didn't take long for me to have to take them to alleviate both the physical AND mental pain. Here are the meds that I have used recently and the dose I needed to take each time in order for me to "feel good"
- Hydro, 30 mg (every 3 or 4 hours)
- Oxycodone, 20mg (every 2 or 3 hours)
- Oxicontin, 160mg (every 6 or 7 hours)
- Roxi's, 60mg (every 4 or 5 hours)
- Fent lolly, 1600 mcg (i lolly in combo with 30mg of Roxi)
- Morphine IV, 2mg
- Dilaudid IV, 2 mg (didn't do anything for me so they added 1mg of Morphine)

Those are the most recent meds that I can remember (last 2 months). I have a ridiculously high tolerance. Hope this list helps a little, and please, no judgement

-Indy

Sorry @Xzentric , I hijacked your thread

Don't be silly....

You need just as much as support as i do. Fell free to post what you need when you need. Its what we're all here for.

[Jellyfish]

Aww shit man..please don't apologise to me mate..you're human, we **** it up, we learn, we get back on the wagon.
This was you're 1st real attempt, and it probably won't be the last relapse..but one day, it's gonna stick..it will, I know it.
You do need some support though, and sometimes it has to come from someone other than your family and friends, they are a excellent lifeline obviously, but I think additional help is what's really going to get you kicking this...

[Maggiemaie]

@Xzentric , I am sorry to hear you relapsed. @Indy Girl , I too have a ridiculously high tolerance from long term pain control issues. Its hard to quit when the pain doesn't quit.

[betsky]

Hi guys
found this hanging arond in my subscription pile
lets all remember that we each fight ou individual
battles every day in a hopefully upward journey.
we slip,fall, get back up and keep on trudging along, till
the day when we can smile that real smile again
@Xzentric
You will always be my "ZEN" master.
@Indy Girl
((hi)) can I have a lollipop?

@MaggieMae @Jellyfish
Taking the chance to say "hey"
all my best
Betsky

[dafeet]

To err is human; to forgive, divine.
Alexander Pope

You need to forgive yourself and try again. I agree with another poster who mentioned exercise. Once the physical WD's are gone, go work your body to the bone. I am currently out of my norcos, and have been going out nightly and doing 5-6 miles as fast as I can walking. By the time I am done, my body feels decent and my mind feels so great. Those natural endorphins work wonders when you can get them to start responding.