Is this just stupid?

[billyboy1965]

There is an old saying in recovery: "How can you tell when an addict is lying?"
Answer: "When his lips are moving."

I thought I heard them all.

@misspoppy I was in your position; I wasn't the addict. I was the initial enabler until I went through too many years of hell.

[misspoppy]

Thanks to all of you for the support and helpful advice. I do tend to believe him because he has been honest with me his entire life, too honest in my opinion as he has told me things I didn't want to know as a mother. But at the same time those are good points as he may lie to me about the amounts he has taken so that I don't worry. I am not going to go the route with the codeine. I see the consensus is that is for sure not the way to go. He has been off of the hydro for 3 days this will be his 4th but from what I understand he is taking little pieces off of methadone pills to help. As you guys can probably tell I have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to the methadone all I know is his friend gave him a few to help him for the first few days. Can you guys give me any advice as to what to say to him? Is it better to just go cold turkey and show him posts and advice from people who have gone through this? He still seems pretty miserable and warned me he will be for a few days. He isn't able to eat much so I have made him protein drinks and he has slammed them down quickly to at least keep his protein up and also taking a multivitamin, drinking lots of sunny delight and green tea.

[lb65]

misspoppy ,i have been on some kind of pain med since 1971.last year i went clear and i have to say it was so vary hard,but i realized that no matter how much i had it was never enough.as far as taking methodone that is such a bad idea,it is so addictived and if they have only been taking hydo.or just small stuff it is very dangerous. i had old junky friends that died on that stuff and they had plenty of experiance at this. it only takes about 3 or 4 days to detox physically and it is better to just bite the bullet and go cold turkey ,it is so very uncomfortable,kind of like hell.but if they can hold out for just 3 day it will be so much quicker than stringing it out with takeing little bits of the same old thing. somthing for the neurves would be helpful,sleepy time tea works or somethignot over the counter if you have it.gator aid for electrolites and hydration,pepcied for the stomach,amodium for bawl disorder & smething to help them sleep like benedryl or melatonnin at 3mg 1 or 2 also good for neurves,or again something not OTC and keep some of what has been being taken around, very important as long as you know there is some around that you can have if you have to it's not so scary.after 3 -4 days the mind games start it took me over a year to get rid of that, but this to will pass. or you could just go to any ER and tell them you need to detox,ST FRAN. is good about it. i hope this will help your in for a long hall,and it will not be easy but it can be done.i will keep the in my prayers because god knows you going to need it.fyi they have addiction drs.to work with check it out. good luck,and god bless.

[misspoppy]

Thanks I just had a talk with him about the methadone and he is no longer going to take it. I have gatorade, vitamins, and otc sleeping aids to help him and will look into the other stuff.

[mimi]

Thanks I just had a talk with him about the methadone and he is no longer going to take it. I have gatorade, vitamins, and otc sleeping aids to help him and will look into the other stuff.

@misspoppy - I don't know you or your son, and I don't want to sound mean in any way, but one concern I have is that your son isn't telling you the whole truth. I'm also concerned that you're believing him because you want so very badly to believe that he's telling you the whole truth.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've been there. I wanted so very badly to believe that my loved one was telling me the truth, so I convinced myself that he was telling me the truth whenever he said he quit drinking, was going to quit drinking, had only had a couple of beers, that tonight was going to be the last night that he drank etc. He was lying to me for years, but I wanted so badly to believe him, so I usually believed what he said - It was easier for me to believe his lies than to deal with the truth.

I truly hope you aren't offended in any way by my comments because I don't know you or your son. However, I've been an enabler, I've believed that my loved one was telling me the truth when he was minimizing, hiding, or lying to me, and I've had a dear loved one love alcohol more than he loved me. I truly hope your son is telling you the whole truth, but based on my personal experience, I have a feeling that you might not be hearing the whole truth from your son, and he might be lying to you to protect his addiction.

I wish you the very best, and I will be thinking of you and your son. Take care.

[alumni]

You asked about what you should tell him.
That's a tricky question since relationships between parents and children are so varied and filled with history that it could take you months to explain on a discussion board like this. One of the reasons why groups like Al-Anon can be so helpful is because you would be hearing and sharing insight with others personally in an open and honest environment about possibly similar situations. That can be very positive for your own peace of mind.
I am asked this question quite often. My general advice is to tell him you unconditionally love him but you are taking off your "mother" hat (read:enabler) for now and are going to, without equivocation, treat him like the substance abuser that he's become until he honestly shows you otherwise.
As an aside, I have found mothers in this mindset consistently more effective than male or father figures. I guess Mother Nature should get the props for this statistic.

[misspoppy]

@mimi07 you do not sound mean at all. This is what I need to hear and I appreciate the honesty. You have not offended me at all in fact you have been very helpful and I thank you for that.
@alumni Thanks for the tip and I do believe Al-Anon may benefit me quite a bit. Ty for your very helpful advice.

[billyboy1965]

and it is better to just bite the bullet and go cold turkey ,it is so very uncomfortable,kind of like hell.but if they can hold out for just 3 day it will be so much quicker than stringing it out with takeing little bits of the same old thing.

somthing for the neurves would be helpful,sleepy time tea works or somethignot over the counter if you have it.gator aid for electrolites and hydration,pepcied for the stomach,amodium for bawl disorder & smething to help them sleep like benedryl or melatonnin at 3mg 1 or 2 also good for neurves,

Excellent. I couldn't have said it better myself. I would have spelled some of the words differently, but I share this opinion completely and respect a new member for making the post.

"Bite the bullet."

[Binky]

@misspoppy I just want to tell you that you aren't alone in your struggles with your son.I too have a son who is 25 & he's been medicating himself with Hydrocodone or whatever pain killer that he can get.He's now on Suboxone to try & get off the painkillers.
I too am out of my mind with worry.I've tried to talk with him but it doesn't do any good.
He's been depressed since he was a little boy & I've watched him try to feel better but the painkillers have only made him worse.Like I said he's on Suboxone now but I have to ask myself what is next.I just wanted to let you know you aren't alone.I don't know what to do except be there for him.I feel so guilty since I take painkillers & he knows it so I've not been a very good example of what you should do.Hopefully, he will get sick of the run around that you get on when you take them without a doctor's prescription, He has had trouble finding them so he tends to get very sick when he doesn't have them.
Hang in there misspoppy you aren't alone in your struggles with your son.I know all to well what it's like.

[tadpol]

"Everybody Lies" - House MD, but so true. Even those of us with very real pain issues find ourselves ensnared by our meds. It's happened to me. When forced to face my problem I've always fudged the numbers to make my problem seem less than how bad it is and in my personal opinion I think it's human nature. Self preservation or something.

I'm not calling your son a liar (in a personal way). I'm calling every human being on earth a liar. Short of Jesus Christ who isn't? So please don't take it personal. I know it's hard to see someone you love suffer. My mother was the first person to hand me drugs because I was in such pain she couldn't bear it anymore. Her intentions were only of a loving mother. Little could she know she was throwing a pebble into the lake that would ripple for decades.

Sigh.

I wish you AND your son nothing but the best. But if he is even hinting that he thinks he "maybe" has a problem I would encourage counseling, maybe even treatment. Especially if he started this rollercoaster for "fun" and not because he was chronically ill or diseased.

There is actually a great deal of strength in surrounding yourself with those on a true path of recovery. I know over the years it's blessed me.

One of the really hard things (I think) is once you've unleashed this monster (legit or not) when life throws things at you that cause you true physical pain and you need intervention (medically) you have to go to war with the monster over and over again. It's many things and none are easy.

[MrClean]

@misspoppy
Hi. I would echo much of what @billyboy1965 said. I would also add the following from personal experience.

1) Nothing you do or don't do is going to make him stop and get help. He will stop when the consequences and pain become unbearable. Only he can make this decision. You cannot control his behavior, only your behavior.
2) As much as you want to help him, you are enabling him. Be careful, or you will love him to death. I don't say that to be unkind or cruel, it's just true.
3) If he decides to get help, by all means support him. But you cannot fix, change or make better his addiction issue. The drugs are the symptom, he needs to address the disease.

I wish you well, and remember, the choice isn't whether or not your son falls deeper into addiction or not, the choice is whether or not you allow him to take you down the rabbit hole with him.

@misspoppy, the most accurate, truthful, honest, maybe painful to hear, and will most likely leave you feeling powerless (and you are) is this statement by made by @H20shed65 as follows:

"1) Nothing you do or don't do is going to make him stop and get help. He will stop when the consequences and pain become unbearable. Only he can make this decision. You cannot control his behavior, only your behavior."

What you can do is if/when he hits bottom, and if he reaches out for help, have a plan in place where the hand of AA, NA, treatment center, addiction specialist, etc. is there at that moment to help him. If he truly has hit bottom he will grab that hand and ask for help.

From what I have seen and experienced, there are only four possible outcomes for the addict:

1. He will begin recovery;
2. He will be incarcerated;
3. He will be institutionalized; or
4. He will die.

I don't mean to come across as curt or insensitive. Dealing with an addict we have to be honest with ourselves. We also need to be prepared, if that is even possible, for the short list of outcomes.

MrClean

[Perromaldido]

Misspoppy, Methadone is a very bad idea. It is hyper-addictive and the withdrawals last for such a long time to drive people nuts. I hope he knows pharmacological facts about it and how many mgs he's taking in connection with his tolerance....it is a real dangerous territory and by no means one can play with it.

Perromaldido

[misspoppy]

He is no longer taking the methadone. Is drinking protein shakes, taking a multivitamin and also vitamin b complex. He is a bear to live with for past few days but doing his best and determined to get over it. He seems better today and is getting out and about so I am remaining cautiously optimistic.

[DevilishOne]

Back to the original question, first he must truly want to stop. Next if possible at all use professional medical detox experts. Ten months of 40 mgs of HC a day is a fairly substantial habit. I would suggest that unless he's working with medical professionals to detox, DO NOT go it youselves using much more powerful narcotics like methadone or suboxone. If you really must try something yourselves, taper the HC usage down to where he doesn't feel it but it relieves his WD symptoms. There are a plethora of schedules avilable on the net, usually stepping down every 3 days. At some point he'll need to jump off the taper and set aside 3 days to be sick, followed by another 3 days to just feel like doing nothing and then he'll feel better each and every day for a couple of weeks. The most important thing is for him not to equivalence not being sick with being healthy. One slip or use in the weeks to follow the first week of abstinence will just put him back to day 4 and he'll go through the torture of the lethargy and recovery all over again. Again, he's young and if it's truly his first go round with this it really, really is worth it to use professional help.

[deadhorse]

methadone for hydro??/??? ypu got to be effing kidding me. hes is taking a pussy dose- lock him in a room anf tell him to man up. hydro addiction, especially for a fresh addict is a joke, surprized the methadone didnt kill him

[DevilishOne]

He is no longer taking the methadone. Is drinking protein shakes, taking a multivitamin and also vitamin b complex. He is a bear to live with for past few days but doing his best and determined to get over it. He seems better today and is getting out and about so I am remaining cautiously optimistic.

Be aware that because of the incredibly long half-life (duration of effect) of methadone, someone who substitutes it for hydrocodone will feel fine for 3 days after he stops the methadone. Then the time to "pay the piper" begins. Hopefully he was nibbling at a 10 mg pills and not the 40 mg wafers.

[Xzentric]

Speaking from experience as an addict and a huge house md fan, you are right 100%

It is the basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what. I don't ask why they lie, I just assume they all do. Truth begins in lies. I have found out that if you want to find the truth about somebody, that someone is probably the last person you should ask.

Reality is almost always wrong.


EVERYBODY LIES

[cat2]

So XZentric,

What did you think of the final episode??? I'm so sad that Hugh Laurie (sp?) decided to end the show (I read in an article that it was his decision, not the network's that this would be his last season). I loved the ending. Also, I was getting a bit frustrated this season....it felt like a lot of this season's shows were just too painful. Also, I really missed the fireworks with Cuddy. Sorry, this was probably off the topic of what you all were talking about, but I wanted to chime in about House.

Cat2

[misspoppy]

Be aware that because of the incredibly long half-life (duration of effect) of methadone, someone who substitutes it for hydrocodone will feel fine for 3 days after he stops the methadone. Then the time to "pay the piper" begins. Hopefully he was nibbling at a 10 mg pills and not the 40 mg wafers.

Yea it was the 10mg pill but he isn't taking anything now other than vitamins. He agreed it was stupid to just prolong the symptoms and he wasn't very smart for taking advice from his friends.

Back to the original question, first he must truly want to stop. Next if possible at all use professional medical detox experts. Ten months of 40 mgs of HC a day is a fairly substantial habit. I would suggest that unless he's working with medical professionals to detox, DO NOT go it youselves using much more powerful narcotics like methadone or suboxone. If you really must try something yourselves, taper the HC usage down to where he doesn't feel it but it relieves his WD symptoms. There are a plethora of schedules avilable on the net, usually stepping down every 3 days. At some point he'll need to jump off the taper and set aside 3 days to be sick, followed by another 3 days to just feel like doing nothing and then he'll feel better each and every day for a couple of weeks. The most important thing is for him not to equivalence not being sick with being healthy. One slip or use in the weeks to follow the first week of abstinence will just put him back to day 4 and he'll go through the torture of the lethargy and recovery all over again. Again, he's young and if it's truly his first go round with this it really, really is worth it to use professional help.

Yep he truly wanted to stop, he was the one that came to me and told me umm I have a problem with pain pills and I am quitting them so I may be a jerk for he next few days. He was mad cause his friends did them recreationally and he ended up gettiing to where he was taking them every day.

[Demona]

@misspoppy it's easy when you are young to start things because friends are doing it. If I had the wisdom then I had now I wouldn't be on a road to quit smoking because I wouldn't have started but at the time it seemed like a great way to deal with home stress and anger the parents. Two birds - one addictive stone.

I'm glad he came to you with this and was open about it. I wish you both the best and I hope my son will come talk to me if he finds himself in trouble the same way yours did. It's an honest boost to you as a parent that he felt comfortable in doing that. I wouldn't have with my parents.