Kratom for Depression

[mdavis6565]

Although Kratom is discussed rather thoroughly in the analgesic section since it seems to be an effective anti-depressant I thought maybe it deserved its own thread here.

History of Kratom

Kratom is a tree that grows in the Asia pacific islands. It has been used by the people there for thousands of years. The alkaloids of the plant are known to stimulate the opioid receptors but may also have other unknown affects. At lower doses of Kratom it mostly agonizes the kappa and delta receptors, but at higher doses it begins to agonize mu receptors. When consumed as a whole leaf higher doses usually induce nausea preventing high levels of mu agonism from occurring. When the alkaloids are extracted high dosage does not induce nausea allowing for users to experience high levels of mu agonism.

Daily low dosage Kratom use is not likely to cause significant harm. The delta and kappa opioid receptors are not generally associated with addiction. As the dosage is increased the risk of problems from addiction increases significantly. Withdrawal from high dosage Kratom use is reported to be as bad or worse then serious opioid withdrawal. Most often this occurs in users of tinctures, extracts, or enhanced products; however, some users of plain leaf have reported problems although not until after they had increased their consumption to very high levels.

My Personal Experience

I have had Major Depressive Disorder since my early teens. My first real treatment began only a few years ago. I self medicated with a research chemical for almost a year. Although I found it to be very helpful in bringing me out of a very bad place it drove me into a persistent manic state. Fortunately I still had enough of a mind to realize that the way I was self medicating was unsustainable and I did bring it to an end after about 9 months.

Afterwards I set up appointments to see a psychiatrist to begin medically supervised treatments. While waiting for my appointment I did some research on analgesics for depression because the RC I had been treating myself with was classified as an analgesic. I discovered that Tramadol (Ultram) had been shown to be effective at treating depression in a number of cases, and I happened to have a bottle that had been prescribed to me for back pain several months back that I never took. I started taking the Tramadol and found it to be about as effective as the RCs that I had been medicating with although without the induced mania.

I got my appointment with the Pdoc around the time I was running out of Tramadol and explained my situation to her. She immediately informed me that I would not be prescribed Tramadol; however, I expected this and was willing to follow her recommended course of treatment. She first prescribed me Zoloft. This actually had a negative affect on me (I became tired all the time and severely unmotivated). She next tried Wellbutrin, which had a positive affect; however, at the minimum dose it was only partially effective.

I had a desire not to increase my dose of Wellbutrin so I began to research and try supplements for depression and also nootropics. I never found a supplement for depression that was able to totally correct my problem; however, one nootropic - Phenibut - corrected it completely. Unfortunately Phenibut can not be used on a daily basis because it is extremely physically addictive. Shortly after beginning my Phenibut use I discovered Kratom.

After researching Kratom for a bit I suspected that since other opioids had been so effective Kratom may as well. I decided to give it a try and immediately discovered that it was as effective as Tramadol for me. Since that time I have been using it daily; however, I do take breaks for a few days a couple times a month. I have not found that I ever needed to increase my dosage and I do not get any cravings to take it more then I should. My breaks are always on my days off because I do feel fairly depressed and unmotivated when I do not take it; however, it is not what I would call a severe or even moderate withdrawal.

Based on my research I feel confident that I can continue to use it this way as long as I do not begin to increase my dosage. I understand that if I do I would be putting myself at significant risk for addiction problems that I would rather not deal with. Before my last psychiatrist appointment I actually ran out of Wellbutrin and was not able to take it for several days. Once before this had happened to me when the pharmacy did not have it available and I felt quite tired and lethargic without my Wellbutrin. With the Kratom I found that I had no problems at all. The only reason why I am inclined to continue with the Wellbutrin is because I want to maintain my relationship with my Pdoc, and have something readily available to me in case some problem occurs that I can not continue the Kratom usage.

[kimmyleigh]

Very interesting! Since reading about it on this site and others, I think I may try Kratom. I am currently on citalopram (Celexa), and that works well for evening out the lows of depression, but I find I need something for energy and motivation some days.
Tried bupropion (Wellbutrin), and it worked well for a few months, but then it started making me bloated and uncomfortable. If it was only occasional I'd be able to deal with it, but it was daily, a yucky fat feeling. I was also just beginning to feel some tightness when breathing, and since I had a history of asthma, I stopped.
Then I tried opiods, and was very surprised. But I know they are not a long term solution! But I would like to try some things because it felt so good to feel normal again! I wasn't manic or hyper or over-the-moon, but I felt like doing things, and felt that glimmer of optimism that is so hard to find sometimes. Many days, sleep seems so appealing and it just seems so hard to get up and going. Thank you for sharing your experience @mdavis6565!

[mdavis6565]

If you only need something for occasional days Kratom is probably a good solution. In general I think it is mostly going to help with the same kind of depression that Wellbutrin does so if you got relief from that I would say the odds are good. The nice thing about Kratom is the affect is immediate. You do not need to wait weeks to see if it will actually work or not and as an on/off drug it is likely to be more effective rather then less.

[kimmyleigh]

@mdavis6565, that is good to hear, I did like the way the bupropion made me feel mentally, like I could handle a higher level of stress than normally. It actually was most useful for PMS, and I really miss that. Almost like clockwork a week before my period starts I feel more tired and fatigued, more depressed, more easily irritated. Even though I try to rationalize with myself "it's your hormones, don't get all depressed", that only goes so far. But then other days, I feel normal, and just a nice cup of coffee in the morning is perfect.

[brienzi]

Do your reserch @kimmyleigh there is a thread around here dedicated to kratom where i'm sure u'll find some helpful suggestions, and get some good info.....use the search tab and type in Kratom and bingo the thread should be listed....

[kimmyleigh]

@brienzi, yup, done that, and have ordered some! They processed fast and its on its way. I am excited to try it, although I am going to make sure to start with small doses; it sounds like if you go overboard you will NOT have a good time!
And I do tend to have a weak stomach (not much of a drinker because of that, although I do like a good alcohol buzz), I don't want to get pukey!

[teresita]

@kimmyleigh What kind did you order? The thai strains are more energetic than the balis, imo. Youll probably receive by the weekend so let us know. I love reading when it works for someone.

[kimmyleigh]

@teresita I hope I get it for the weekend, that will be nice! I ordered a gold wings blend, it was on special. Wasn't quite sure what to try first, so I figured a blend might be nice. It was also in the mid-range in price. Gosh I've done so much reading on this, I want to try it NOW! Your posts have been most helpful too!

[chelse]

I tried kratom before. Even in small dosages it made me feel sick to my stomach. But, everyone's different, if it works for you then that's great! I def think it's good to have a back up of something in case ur prescription runs out. Used to be phenibut for me.... prob now will just be a glass of moscato.

[teresita]

@kimmyleigh I have tried the gold wings and it is very good at small doses. Definetly an energetic blend. I always get mine in 2 days so you should have it by the weekend for sure. They do same day shipping if the order is received by 5pm pst. Next time if you can, try the zen, its awesome, and this is coming from me a long time user of kratom. Glad I could help you out, thats sweet of you to say so.

[slick76]

@teresita I already gave up Wellbutrin to use Kratom but do I also need to get off my ADHD medication, Dexedrine? I was reading the instructions on how to use Kratom safely and it said to avoid stimulants, does it mean no coffee as well?

[teresita]

I actually prefer it with coffee. Maybe that gives it the extra kick, idk.

[mdavis6565]

I still take my Wellbutrin although it is at very low dose (150mgs) did you read something that says you should not take both?

Also I pretty much gave up on coffee because it was not necessary while taking Kratom; however, occasionally I still do drink it.

[teresita]

@mdavis6565 I have found kratom to be uplifting if Im able to be uplifted. Had some really bad days this past week and no amount of kratom was able to lift the blues. And I have never heard that there is any interaction with kratom and ADs. But to the other poster about dexedrine, I think that would be so much stronger than kratom that one wouldnt be necessary with the other. Ive never had any stimulant besides modafanil, only a couple of times and in combo with the kratom, it was almost too speedy for me. Its one or the other for me, but thats just me. kratom is different for everyone.

[mdavis6565]

I recently recommended Kratom to AFOAF who was using Adderall to help her work 16 hours a day. Unfortunately she is having health problems and she needs to stop using the Adderall. I was under them impression that Kratom caused a psychological reaction that caused one to feel less tired and stimulated but was not actually physically stimulating. I suggested Kratom because I believed it would be better for her health. Is this correct or will Kratom put her at the same risk as Adderall?

[teresita]

@mdavis6565 I think you gave good advice. Kratom does make me more focused as well as physically active at work, but not stimulating enough to keep me awake. I suppose if I took it too soon before sleep it might be interrupting my sleep but I wouldnt know, its usually "someone" that interrupts my sleep or my irratic sleep patterns. I do find it physcially stimulating at work when I HAVE to be active to finish my 12hr shift but at home when Im less disciplined, its up to me to be active, if that makes sense. If someone has health problems with adderal, depending on the condition, kratom may either be useless due to the person expecting way too much stimulation but if its high BP or rapid heart beat maybe its not a good alternative, but it would be a good step down for someone trying to get off stimulants but I have no actual data to support that, its jmo.

[slick76]

@mdavis6565 That's what I was taking, Wellbutrin XL 150mg. It said on some website not to take anything stimulating with Kratom. The Dexedrine is not working anymore, and I'm so fed up with trying different drugs that I'd prefer the natural way.

I still take my Wellbutrin although it is at very low dose (150mgs) did you read something that says you should not take both?

Also I pretty much gave up on coffee because it was not necessary while taking Kratom; however, occasionally I still do drink it.

[kimmyleigh]

Well, I've tried my kratom! I didn't get it for the weekend, (my fault, didn't get to the po on time on Sat) but it was a busy weekend so I guess that was ok. So I tried it this morning, and I am very impressed!
I tried my first bit with some oj. I used a half teaspoon leveled, which I'm not sure but I think is about 2 grams. I felt a tiny bit of energy but calm at the same time. I took a larger half tsp an hr and a half later, this time as a tea. Then a little before noon I took a full teaspoon, w/ oj. I must say the taste is not as bad as I was expecting, for me much better than alcohol!
The feeling is very similar to doing vics or percs. I get a bit of energy, but not crazy jittery energy. I feel a light sense of happiness and well being. (It also was a gorgeous sunny day, so that made it better.) I also feel more optimistic, more social, but chill and calm. (I also smoked some pot during, and that complimented it very well. I didn't feel couchlocked after either.) Other effects I noticed were relief from aches and pains, sinus-opening, and hunger suppression. I even noticed a tiny bit of the itchies!
So I can say I will most certainly be doing more kratom in the future! But I can see how it should be used kind of like coffee, a little here and there throughout the day for a boost. Not to be binged on and get crazy high off of. I'm sure eventually I will want to try a very high dose, but I didn't buy that much, I don't want to use it all at once just yet!
That is the other thing, while I'm at the peak dosage, I want to do more, but a deterrent is kratom takes a little more effort to use. It's not horrible tasting, but it's not that good either. Plus I can see having to use more and more, and in large amounts I can imagine it's a pain to take/drink it all. I can see how your body can tell you when it's had enough.
Overall, very interesting! This should be the new coffee! @teresita, @mdavis6565

[mdavis6565]

Glad to hear that it worked well for you. Only comment I have is that I doubt you will have success if you are trying to use it both recreationally and medicinally. You need to use caution either way but much more so when used recreationally. It has a potential for addiction just like other opiods and the withdrawal is no better. My guess is that recreational use will also create a strong potential for physical tolerance, and this will interfere with your ability to use it medicinally. Since it works so well for me as medication I make sure that I only use it this way because it has such value to me. Also you may begin to get nauseated when attempting to use higher doses. That said I wish you the best - good luck.

[grayh]

@mdavis6565 Thanks for sharing your experience with Kratom. I've only done it on occasion, and it seems like I've been doing too high of a recreational dose and become nauseated, and never two days in a row. What's the tolerance buildup like and do you dose throughout the day? Seems like I would probably get a more therapeutic effect using it all coffee like @kimmyleigh .
What were your experiences with the research chemical and Phenibut for depression?