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Thread: Bretazenil: The New, Safer Alternative to Alcohol?

  1. Default Bretazenil: The New, Safer Alternative to Alcohol?

    I didn't know quite where to put this... but since a search for this substance (bretazenil) came up w/ no results here, I decided to post this.. if not for only intellectual inquiry. This substance is not scheduled in the US; nor does it fall under the Analog Act as it's chemical skeleton is not "analogous" to any controlled drug of class I, II, or III. Below is some background information on the pharmacology of the substance & an article on it's research & development as a potential safer replacement for ethanol/alcohol.



    Background on Bretazenil:
    This substance is of the "imidazopyrrolobenzodiazepine" class of benzodiazepine-related GABAergics (same class as: midazolam, or "versed", a drug used as a very potent sedative & sometimes as an anesthetic in conjunction w/ other medications, usually potent opioids like fentanyl and/or general anesthetics & NMDA antagonists like Ketamine; it is also in the same class as the benzodiazepine antagonist flumazenil). However, it differs in its effects via several pharmacodynamic mechanisms:

    First, bretazenil has more broad effects on GABA-a benzodiazepine biding sites (akin to ethanol's suspected broadly neurological action)- it acts on the GABA-a receptor subunits alpha-1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, whereas typical benzodiazepines only bind to alpha-1, 2, 3 and 5 subunits in most instances. Second, it is a partial agonist rather than a full agonist (or technically speaking, it acts as a partial "positive allosteric modulator".. which both acts like an agonist, but also modulates or changes how the related neurotransmitter acts at binding sites, compared to pure agonists--in this case GABA is the neurotransmitter at GABA-a subunits). Being a partial agonist means bretazenil likely has a ceiling effect, less adverse side effects, and higher binding affinity--meaning, it may displace other GABAergics & may precipitate withdrawal if a user is dependent on substances acting on benzodiazepine binding sites, particularly alpha-subunits, including: most all benzodiazepines, carbamates to some-degree, & likely alcohol.

    It is was touted by a former United State's drug czar (of all people!?!) & professor Mr. David Nutt, as a safer alternative to alcohol as a recreational substance (as it doesn't carry the same risks of hepatic damage.. err liver damage, in plain English heh heh)... the article originally appeared in the British press, but the link is now dead, so here is the content of the article:



    Article:

    Here's to the beers ... will they be replaced with David Nutt's risk-free booze?

    By PROFESSOR DAVID NUTT

    A SUBSTANCE said to give the feeling of booze without the health risks is being developed by controversial ex Government drugs tsar Professor David Nutt. The solution is added to liquid. It is claimed anyone using it will get the alcohol high without the hangover or deadly liver damage. There is even an antidote which would allow a user to DRIVE home after taking it. Here, the scientist - recently sacked as chairman of the independent Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs after saying ecstasy is safer than alcohol - gives the reason for the innovation.

    WE have been poisoning ourselves for 2,000 years. Modern science can now provide a safer way for us to have fun.
    Extraordinary claims ... Professor David Nutt

    I am working on a prototype of a synthetic alcohol. We can make someone feel pleasantly inebriated then reverse it.

    We have a partial alternative tested on volunteers. With Government backing, the first ever synthetic alcohol could be available in three to five years.

    The potential for this is enormous. It could slash Britain's binge drinking epidemic, which currently costs the NHS 3billion a year, and reduce the number of deaths from alcohol poisoning.

    At the moment it is very hard to treat alcohol poisoning - medics simply have to wait for booze to clear the system.

    With the new approach, they would have an antidote available immediately.

    Law enforcement could even have the antidote to use on revellers who have used the solution. We could get rid of liver cirrhosis, stomach ulcers, cardiac problems and a huge number of the toxic effects.

    We have worked out how alcohol affects the brain and can target these areas. We gave one volunteer a substance similar to Valium, which is a sedative.

    The feeling was similar to being drunk. We then reversed this.
    We have the knowledge to make a far superior synthetic alcohol. But this project is hard to progress.

    Firstly, there is little external interest, perhaps because people think this idea is too radical.

    Secondly, selling the substance would be difficult. It would be classified as a drug and would fall foul of drug laws.

    This is why we need Government support. Alcohol manufacturers may also protest.

    At the moment we don't have a sensible approach to alcohol - it's time for a discussion about safe alternatives.

    You are never going to stop people enjoying a drink. But if they are going to drink, let them do it without the terrible risks of alcohol.

    I believe in 25 years we could be drinking high-quality, safe alcohol.
    Hopefully in the future people will raise a toast over my grave with a glass of synthetic
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    Ahh, that's an old one. I saw that probably well over a year ago. Notice no one else has heard of it since then? It could be even older.

    Nothing will happen with that. It's not a good sub for booze.

    Here's one for you! I've only seen it really offered in England. It's like ethanol but I don't believe the liver processes it. That's a big deal!

    It's a LONG ONE-

    2M2B - 2-methyl-2-butanol
    2M2B Drug Info: Please add information about 2-methyl-2-butanol here:
    names / synonyms as of current
    molecule
    dose
    duration
    side effects
    legal status
    have there been any reported incidents with this compound?
    since when has this research chemical been available?
    stability of the molecule / compound
    Experiences with 2-methyl-2-butanol are discussed in the following thread: tbd later

    Known as:2M2B; 2-methyl-2-butanol; tert-Amyl alcohol (TAA); 2-Methylbutan-2-ol; Amylene hydrate; Dimethylethylcarbinol; tert-Pentyl alcoholor amylene hydrate

    CAS: 75-85-4
    IUPAC: 2-Methyl-2-butanol

    Description: one of the isomers of amyl alcohol, 2M2B is a specialty pentanol used primarily in pharmaceutical and pigment applications. It is soluble with water and other organic solvents. Commercial quantities are produced via the "oxo" and other chemical manufacturing processes. It is a trace component in fermentation ethanol. Tertiary alcohols like 2-Methyl-2-butanol cannot be oxidised which makes them useful as drugs because they do not form toxic aldehyde and carboxylic acid metabolites. For the most part, solvents like 2M2B have gone out of use for sedating and anesthetizing patients... more info needed here.

    Common Appearance: It is a clear, colorless liquid with a strong odor of peppermint or camphor.

    WARNING: Not to be confused with pepperment isopropyl alcohol, a common over the counter TOPICAL (on your skin) medicine, which, if consumed, can be extremely harmful, causing side effects like blindness, or fatal!

    Dose: It is active in doses of 2,000-4,000 mg, making it some 20 times more potent than regular ethanol. It is as nearly as potent as GHB.. Its hypnotic potency is between that of chloral hydrate and paraldehyde or between benzodiazepines and ethanol.

    Duration: 2M2B has a longer duration than alcohol more info needed here

    Side effects: In humans it possesses sedative, hypnotic, and anticonvulsant effects similar to ethanol through ingestion or inhalation, and was previously used in medicine for this purpose. Overdose produces symptoms similar to alcohol poisoning and is a medical emergency.

    Case reports of acute intoxication include:
    18 g: Ingestion of 18 g of 2-methyl-2-butanol by an adult resulted in unconsciousness, a deep sleep lasting more than one day, and a slow recovery.
    27 g: The ingestion of 27 g of 2-methyl-2-butanol by an adult female resulted in unconsciousness within 0.5 hr, marked signs of intoxication through the following day, and complete recovery after 14 days.
    29 g rectally: The administration of an enema of approximately 29 g of 2-methyl-2-butanol to an adult male resulted in death after 53 hr, but the case was complicated by concurrent pneumonia in the patient

    Legality:
    Available since:
    stability of the molecule / compound
    Molecule: needs 2-d chemical model


    More Info: 2-Methyl-2-butanol is a grain fermentation byproduct and therefore in most alcoholic beverages. Minor quantities, mainly in Europe, are obtained from separation of fusel alcohols. TAA is also produced by hydration of i-amylene. TAA is available for administration as a solid (oral capsules), liquid (orally or intravenously) and gas (distilled water solution turned to aerosolization for inhalation with a nebulizer. provides more euphoria than alcohol? more info. needed. Is it a GABA agonist? more info needed. 2M2B induces a warm, numbing sensation similar to alcohol. 2M2B has great antioxylitic (anti-anxiety) effects, which might be desirable for social situations or for users who enjoy benzodiazepenes for relaxation.
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  3. I KNOW!! @COSGringo ...them English have all the benzo's.. AND, have all the good IOP's it seems? I'd give you a "like" but i'd be shooting blanks
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  4. & @COSGringo -- yea, i know its at least ~4 years old. But i figured it is worth a shot... see if anyone has had any experience with it. You're more active in here than myself... do you suggest a better forum to post this in order to get any responses? Or is this the best place? (assuming there ARE responses to be found in the first place! heh)
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  5. It bothers me that the article keeps referring to it as "synthetic alcohol." The chemical formulation, if I understand it, in no way resembles alcohol, being more related to valium. Maybe Dr. McNutt-job is trying to sell it as an alcohol replacement--and who's to say he shouldn't--but he's a scientist. Ostensibly. He should represent it correctly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusiciansMallet View Post
    & @COSGringo -- yea, i know its at least ~4 years old. But i figured it is worth a shot... see if anyone has had any experience with it. You're more active in here than myself... do you suggest a better forum to post this in order to get any responses? Or is this the best place? (assuming there ARE responses to be found in the first place! heh)
    Possibly drug-forums.com . No guarantees.

    Maybe something o'seas. You won't see much here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    It bothers me that the article keeps referring to it as "synthetic alcohol." The chemical formulation, if I understand it, in no way resembles alcohol, being more related to valium. Maybe Dr. McNutt-job is trying to sell it as an alcohol replacement--and who's to say he shouldn't--but he's a scientist. Ostensibly. He should represent it correctly.
    I referred to later a liquid that is really alcohol more or less but not some an issue to the liver.

    Meh, no biggie to me. I am not looking for that buzz anymore. Counting my days.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by COSGringo View Post
    I referred to later a liquid that is really alcohol more or less but not some an issue to the liver.

    Actually... the alternative you referred to DOES impact the liver.. albeit not as harshly as ethanol, though!

    Glad to hear you're not looking for booze anymore my man! Keep w/ it!!
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    @MusiciansMallet
    Sadly I am on an opana diet now. Still have some good wine now and then. If I shall die young I will eat and drink well. Not excessively, just the better wines and limited amounts.
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    It bothers me that the article keeps referring to it as "synthetic alcohol." The chemical formulation, if I understand it, in no way resembles alcohol, being more related to valium. Maybe Dr. McNutt-job is trying to sell it as an alcohol replacement--and who's to say he shouldn't--but he's a scientist. Ostensibly. He should represent it correctly.
    Well we have two ways to interrupt a substance- via its psychoactive (or pharmacological) effects, or via its pharmaceutical skeleton/structure... the author of this article & promoter of this substance seems to be using the former interpretation.. as it does indeed act similarly on GABA-a ionotropic membranes as a positive modulator. And in actuality, GABA-a selective substances are magnitudes safer than ethanol.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by MusiciansMallet View Post
    Well we have two ways to interrupt a substance- via its psychoactive (or pharmacological) effects, or via its pharmaceutical skeleton/structure... the author of this article & promoter of this substance seems to be using the former interpretation.. as it does indeed act similarly on GABA-a ionotropic membranes as a positive modulator. And in actuality, GABA-a selective substances are magnitudes safer than ethanol.
    Well stated; nonetheless, the mode of action being similar, it's not an "alcohol replacement" by any stretch of the imagination. For example, you know what I like about a glass of wine? The smell and taste of course. Holding the glass. Observing the color. Sharing it with a friend. A pill? No, not even close...and that's even assuming that the mechanism of its GABA-a positive modulation is similar/identical. Not being the most astute student of biochemistry I can only say my hunch is even that might be a stretch.

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    I think that article is a couple years old. I am pretty sure nothing came of it.

    Look at it this way though, booze is a drug. If you could shut it off and on and not make addicts out of everyone, well it would be a better drug. It was my favorite drug for many years unfortunately.

    Our society hands out drugs like candy anyways.

    In Brave New World- mind control was through Soma, yup they mention soma in that very old novel.

    Farenheit 451, it was a mix of meds.

    1984- well that sucked. All you got was Victory Gin and newspeak. With political correctness, we are on our way to newspeak.
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by COSGringo View Post
    I think that article is a couple years old. I am pretty sure nothing came of it.

    Look at it this way though, booze is a drug. If you could shut it off and on and not make addicts out of everyone, well it would be a better drug. It was my favorite drug for many years unfortunately.

    Our society hands out drugs like candy anyways.

    In Brave New World- mind control was through Soma, yup they mention soma in that very old novel.

    Farenheit 451, it was a mix of meds.

    1984- well that sucked. All you got was Victory Gin and newspeak. With political correctness, we are on our way to newspeak.
    If I could have a buzz that turned off and on, sure. Great. But I'm skeptical, to say the least.

    As for the horrors of ethanol, yeah it's worse than some of the other drugs out there.

    I drink wine. Wine is not ethanol, although it's ethanol-containing. Anybody who looks at liver damage or serotonin receptors in alcoholic monkeys doesn't examine wine. They use ethanol. I should know. My ex wife studied slices of the brains of these dead, formerly alcoholic monkeys. They got pure ethanol and fruit juice. Their brains were deficient in the same chemicals as mine I suppose.

    Science hasn't even begun to characterize wine. Wine is a million different compounds. Fermentation products have been ingested by humankind for thousands if not hundreds of thousands or even millions of years. Is it bad for you? Is food bad for you? Tell me 20 random products in the supermarket and it's a good bet wine is one of the safest of the lot. And pills? Well, it depends.

    Basically, my philosophy boils down to that song Gin House Blues, but for wine:

    Don't try me nobody
    Cause you will never win
    Don't try me nobody
    Cause you will never win
    I'll fight the army and navy
    Somebody give me my gin


    Nobody wrote a song that good about Adderall.

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    afaik the best remedy for alcoholism is sodium oxybate, or if you like GHB. There's a med over here called alcover, hospital only, that's what it is. Strictly under medical supervision because if you know what the stuff is, you know what happens if you go freeweeling- I years ago staye ome month impatient for a pretty nasty benzo habit and this guy here, he'd been drinking two bottles of scotch per day for years. After three days oxybate he'd walk in the park complaining they wouldn't let him smoke. Why this info can be had only on underground sources is pretty easy to figure out.
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    @Perromaldido aka bad dog
    Yes, I've heard of that one. They do benzos here for detox mostly.

    Staying off, I highly suggest massive doses of baclofen but that's for another forum.
    "If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Perromaldido View Post
    afaik the best remedy for alcoholism is sodium oxybate, or if you like GHB
    GHB for alcoholism? That doesn't seem to be pretty effective?

    First: sodium oxybate & GHB are the same substances.. although i think you were stating that; just trying to clarify things.

    Second: GHB has a very short duration of action (in fact, it usually requires 24-7 dosing to maintain a dependency, i would think this would include a detox), & we know that longer duration of action drugs are better for detox and/or maintenance therapy (diamorphine/heroin vs. methadone or buprenorphine?), as the withdrawal from a short-duration psychoactive is much harsher & intense. If a taper is done properly? Withdrawal from a longer acting psychoactive replacement drug can be next to non-existent! (I weaned off of buprenorphine, 8mg/day, but had to go back on it for pain reasons; as i can't rationally take the PRESCRIBED DOSES of full-agonist opioids!)

    Third: while producing similar effects, GABA-a positive-modulators (alcohol, benzodiazepines, barbiturates, etc) & GABA-b agonists (GHB, GVL, other GHB-analogs, additionally baclofen & phenibut) are absolutely not cross tolerant.. in fact, one is a ionotropic-type-receptor (GABA-a) & the other (GABA-b) functions oppositely as a metabotropic receptor, depending on eukaryotic cells & on G-coupled proteins as ligands for neurotransmission (i.e., think of these "ligands" as an intermediate neurological entities, between the drug's initial introduction to the receptor complex & the final neurotransmitter release or modulation resulting in psychotropic effects).

    I know this from personal experience (barbiturate vs. baclofen- both very specific for GABA-a & GABA-b receptors, respectively); so withdrawal symptoms would not be completely resolved when using a GABA-b agonist for dependency upon a GABA-a positive modulator. As explained, they're two completely different receptors (forget the "GABA" commonality for a moment) & function.. err.. modulate GABA (or "change how GABA acts" to state it more simply) via two completely different mechanisms.


    ~ ~


    Although ethanol is sort of a loose cannon.. Of course no pharmaceutical company will invest in discovering its actual in vivo pharmacological action (although it is highly suspected to act at GABA-a benzodiazepine binding sites, along w/ dopamine & a myriad of other receptor-complexes.. which make the sh*t "dirty" in my opinion) since there is no money to be made by PhRMA... can't patent it to recoup the funds invested in the three trials of the FDA for approval for pharmaceutical sale... which, of course, the FDA wont approve any form of ethanol anyway as it is specifically singled-out to be regulated by the ATF. Any ethanol "patents" would be for booze-formulations, not nearly as profitable as a name-brand medication fully approved by the FDA.
    Last edited by MusiciansMallet; 06-08-2013 at 10:58 AM.
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  16. First, no one is willing or proposing to ban alcohol in place of some "pill." This would be added to non-alcoholic beverages or, less likely, be available in pill form. This would exist in concurrence w/ alcohol. Ethanol (or any drug of major abuse, IMO) will never be eliminated; & thus0 it is futile in banning it, it just creates a niche for organized crime to accumulate more wealth. This would be a mere alternative for individuals such as myself who find GABAergics wonderful, but find alcohol's sloppy neuroactive effects unpleasant (explained below).



    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    Well stated; nonetheless, the mode of action being similar, it's not an "alcohol replacement" by any stretch of the imagination. For example, you know what I like about a glass of wine? The smell and taste of course. Holding the glass. Observing the color. Sharing it with a friend. A pill? No, not even close...and that's even assuming that the mechanism of its GABA-a positive modulation is similar/identical. Not being the most astute student of biochemistry I can only say my hunch is even that might be a stretch.

    I am not denying a selective GABA-a PAM (like the partial agonist bretazenil, being proposed here) would be necessarily identical to ethanol, or diluted forms of it. B/c it isn't.. ethanol is dirty IMO.. it inhibits or slightly blocks calcium channels, certain potassium channels, NMDA receptors, dihydropyridine receptors of the calcium-type, and it interacts with choline in general & specifically nicotinic acetylcholine, glycine, 5-HT3 (& suspected other subunits of serotonin receptors, err 5-HT), in addition to many other suspected areas. However, it looks as if its full pharmacological profile will never be known in our life times as there is no money to be made by PhRMA by investigating the pharmacology of ethanol. But, a safer alternative (suspected to be safer, that is) added to non-alcoholic beer, wine, etc would be preferable, at least for me.



    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    I drink wine. Wine is not ethanol, although it's ethanol-containing. Anybody who looks at liver damage or serotonin receptors in alcoholic monkeys doesn't examine wine. They use ethanol. I should know. My ex wife studied slices of the brains of these dead, formerly alcoholic monkeys. They got pure ethanol and fruit juice. Their brains were deficient in the same chemicals as mine I suppose.

    Science hasn't even begun to characterize wine. Wine is a million different compounds. Fermentation products have been ingested by humankind for thousands if not hundreds of thousands or even millions of years.
    And I don't know the scope of the trials or details of monkeys chronically exposed to ethanol that were allegedly studied by your wife. So i can't speak to that.

    But you most certainly are consuming ethanol as the primary & solely active psychoactive in wine, as an alleged biochem student I'm sure you would know that. & there are other bioactive chemicals being discovered as of late in wine. But oddly enough in most recent research in this area, (as a biochem student i'm sure you'd be aware this) these chemicals also appear in those who have a high-grape diet. You are most certainly consuming ethanol, just a diluted form of it.. w/ a myriad of other substances found in wine- good & bad. This is like saying a heroin user isn't really consuming diacetylmorphine... just b/c it's diluted & contains cut... he or she is consuming "diacetylmorphine containing" substances. Which is in fact true (tar heroin certainly isn't even near medical grade diacetylmorphine!).. but it doesn't mean you (or heroin addicts) aren't consuming ethanol/diacetylmorphine! And you, and them, are certainly consuming these substances primarily for the effects of ethanol (or diacetylmorphine). i know its a leap & a much less healthy comparison to wine-consumption; but still... its a relevant comparison!


    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    Nobody wrote a song that good about Adderall.
    HAA.. uhh no one has written any poetic literature surrounding amphetamine because its only been around for roughly a century... and it isn't a socially acceptable recreational substance! Ethanol, oh excuse me: "wine" or "beer" has been around since at least pre-antiquity! We know the Egyptians thought it to be an elixir of the gods.. they're the first who knew of it, w/ current knowledge, as a psychoactive substance.


    it is VERY unlikely that alcohol has been around for millions of years since homo sapiens have only existed for ~190,000 years. & there is no evidence that original, African pre homo sapein sapien sub-types (prior to humans being subjected to the "bottle effect") had any knowledge of fermentation and/or alcohol production until the some clever Neolithic humans came along (although, admittedly.. alcohol likely did exist for a couple thousand, or perhaps tens-of-thousands, of years prior to them; placing the production of alcohol for recreational and/or ceremonial purposes between 100,000 BCE to 12,000 BCE as my guess; 12,000 BCE is confirmed though, as it is the earliest known residue found in fossil records.) But there is absolutely zero evidence that alcohol has existed for "millions of years"...

    so if neanderthals (having much similar brain capacity as us) or lesser intelligent hominids like homo erectus or homo heidelbergensis were intelligent to ferment beer or wine? There is ZERO evidence for it.


    Opium, which was in wide spread use for much less of a time has literature surrounding its use? Look at the Romantic age & M. H. Abrams, Alethea Hayter, and Elisabeth Schneider.
    Last edited by MusiciansMallet; 06-08-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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    The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men. --Plato

  17. Not really writing as a so-called student of biochemistry, which I'm not.

    My point is not that wine doesn't contain ethanol, which would be silly, or that opium doesn't have literature associated with it. Opium use is ritualized. Alcohol use is ritualized. Perhaps there will one day be a great base of art and music devoted to Adderall consumption but I doubt it and it surely won't be as rich as that with opium and as with alcohol. And it's not just a matter of time, although that's part of it.

    Neither is my point that the drug in question isn't interesting, which it is, just not interesting to me. I wouldn't use it because I like the ritual of drinking as much as I like the buzz.

    My point is that wine consumption cannot be equated to the scientific literature associated with the effects of ethanol. No one studies wine consumption in controlled experiments. Correct me if I'm wrong. Epidemiological stuff, yes, but nothing that shows cause and effect. It's weak stuff.

    But I appreciate your thoughtful response. Good food for thought.
    Last edited by GeorgeTirebiter; 06-08-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  18. OOPS.. misread your post below:
    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    Not being the most astute student of biochemistry I can only say my hunch is even that might be a stretch.
    I was thinking you were a biochem student.. but just not an astute one.


    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    My point is not that wine doesn't contain ethanol, which would be silly
    Ethanol.. or ethyl alcohol (same thing) is MOST CERTAINLY in wine, beer, etc... by the mode of fermentation.. it is just "synthesized" in a way different than pure ethanol. Perhaps you're thinking of synthetically produced ethanol for industrial purposes? fuel purposes? research purposes? But as I explain below- given the dosage/weight curve... research at higher doses can in almost all cases be attributed to lower doses; & vice versa.


    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    opium doesn't have literature associated with it. Opium use is ritualized. Alcohol use is ritualized. Perhaps there will one day be a great base of art and music devoted to Adderall consumption but I doubt it and it surely won't be as rich as that with opium and as with alcohol. And it's not just a matter of time, although that's part of it.
    I just quoted you w/ authors (AND a whole literally movement) who produced literature associated w/ opium. & absinthe also has literature associated w/ it. Give a drug enough time as a socially & recreationally acceptable substance & you will find references to it.

    LSD, mushrooms, peyote.. all have literature from the 1960s (usually in the form of musical lyrics) centered around it. Substances of which i'd wager are much more introspective & psychotropic than ethanol--as i've tried them in addition to ethanol.

    Anyway... unless drug laws change; there certainly wont be much literature over amphetamine use. Although the "Junkie" series contends & pushes the boundaries of what is socially acceptable as a recreational substance... so you never know.



    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    Neither is my point that the drug in question isn't interesting, which it is, just not interesting to me. I wouldn't use it because I like the ritual of drinking as much as I like the buzz.
    ::laughs out loud:: why then are you posting in a thread ABOUT the use of bretazenil???



    [
    Quote Originally Posted by wjones3044 View Post
    ]My point is that wine consumption cannot be equated to the scientific literature associated with the effects of ethanol. No one studies wine consumption in controlled experiments. Correct me if I'm wrong. Epidemiological stuff, yes, but nothing that shows cause and effect. It's weak stuff.
    OK??? No one was claiming that it does? Although we can deduce studies on pure ethanol's pharmacology used in scientific settings (which use the dose/weight curve--using a ratio of 0.7 to 1--to predict a likely human dose and/or pharmacological impact at lower or higher levels.)
    The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men. --Plato

  19. @MusiciansMallet , clearly you enjoy jousting over points real and imagined. So did my biological anthropologist ex-wife. Thankfully, I no longer have to deal with this.

    Have fun!

  20. No, i'm merely concerned w/ factual accuracy... as it seems to be lacking in some areas. Sorry if you perceive this as trying to accumulate "points" for the sake of debate.. b/ci i'm not.. i'm concerned w/ maintaining FACTS. As I wish to be apart of a forum that has accurate pharmacological, biological, & chemical information... not too much to ask?


    Quote Originally Posted by wjones304 View Post
    @MusiciansMallet , clearly you enjoy jousting over points real and imagined. So did my biological anthropologist ex-wife. Thankfully, I no longer have to deal with this.
    Sorry if you're sore over this.. but i just don't understand why you were constantly posting negative statements in regards to bretazenil in favor of the ethanol which (to name a few areas) is carcinogenic or toxic to- the cardiovascular system, the hepatic system (liver), the GI-tract, and the neurological system (ever hear of alcohol dementia??? I sure hope you don't use enough of it to acquire it later on in life?)


    In light of pointing out facts- I was merely stating your inconsistencies w/ the history of alcohol use in humans (umm, not "millions" of years old! by our evidence.. that predates the existence if actual humans); & your view that ethanol is different than wine? it isn't, really. Wine is merely a diluted form of it! How ethanol is produced, either via fermentation or synthetic processes... it really doesn't matter as the exact substance contains C2H6O, the chemical of which subjective effects are what's sought after. It is contained in any alcoholic beverage or research chemical or many different solvents or flammables .
    Last edited by MusiciansMallet; 06-09-2013 at 12:49 AM.
    The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men. --Plato


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