Diatribe Against Paypal

[QVC1212]

Paypal has wronged me. It has been brought to my attention that a few people on this site occasionally read what I have to share. This is excellent! I promise to make my report as objective as unbiased as possible. Nevertheless, a recent negative experience with paypal has motivated me not only to take action against them, but to launch a campaign against them with the intention of harassing them, wasting their resources, and hopefully ultimately hurting their bottom line. If I can prevent even ONE person from using the services of these vultures with a god complex, then I have accomplished my mission.

I have already begun a systematic call in to argue my case in point with their customer service reps both in customer solutions and collections departments. I will use some of my free time to waste their phone time. Having worked in customer service, I am aware that reps cannot hang up on me without putting their own jobs in jeopardy, since the customer is always right, and only the customer can rightfully end the call (have you ever noticed when calling reps at any company that you are the one to hang up, even if it seems like they are ending it? That's for a reason. Because calls are monitored and recorded. Reps can be fired for hanging up on customers).

Second, I have filed a complaint with the better business bureau.

Third, I have begun drafting a letter explaining my case to send to my congressional representatives. Congress, even if they are not made aware of the duplicity and wrongful actions of paypal, will at least suffer a full mailbox of mail from me explaining my experience---over, and over, and over, until I finally hear back from them.

The people on my facebook account will all be made aware of the problem. Perhaps I can reach at least one of them.

Finally, it occurred to me that the members of PR should know about this story. If I can prevent even one member of PR from using PR, I have hurt Paypal's bottom line, and so accomplished my mission.

On June 1st I received an email from paypal. Apparently, my account had been linked to a prior account with a different email address from seven years ago. I owed 16 dollars, and until I paid up, my account was "limited" meaning in essence that it was frozen. This, I discovered, was non-negotiable. No one I spoke, not supervisors, no one, would be willing to write off the debt, erase the debt, or even negotiate a compromise. Although we constantly berate credit card companies and banks for their unfair debit card fees and high interest rates, we must never forget that at least banks are willing to negotiate a complex. They think highly of themselves. But they are not so stupid that they will reject a settlement payment. If I owe a bank $3,000, then they are usually willing to accept some sort of graduated repayment plan if it's current, or, if it's close or has been already charged off, they will accept a settlement. But not paypal. No. Not paypal. They are special. They are PERFECT. And they uphold customers to this perfect standard. No amount of money can ever be charged off, ever, no matter how long ago it occurred.

Let me explain. In 2004, seven years ago, that's right, seven years ago, I had an account with paypal. I sold some medical equipment on the internet through ebay. Customers complain---they always complain---and ebay sided with the buyer instead of the seller, as they always do (never, EVER sell anything on ebay unless you are willing to accept complete and total losses on any and all things you sell based on the fact that ebay is heavily biased in favor of the buyer) Paypal, instead of hearing my story, fronted ebay the money for payback. Then they stuck me with the bill. The amount was $62. I refused to pay and closed the account.

Then, five years later, in 2009, I opened a new paypal account with a different email address. BUT, I provided my same birthday and SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER. Here I am, again. But do they ask me to pay up then? No. They are happy to receive me back as a client of paypal. And all is well. They make tons of money off my transactions for two years. But then, suddenly, randomly, out of the frigging blue, an internal review of records catches their mistake. Oh no---it's the same person from back in 2004!!!! So what does Paypal do. Do they say, oh, shit, we should have caught that back in 2009, and charged him? No. Do they say, well, it's only $16 (or $62 depending on which customer service rep I talk to, confusing the problem even more) let's write it off because he gave us his information in good faith openly and honestly back in 2009, it's our fault we didn't catch it, and it's a negligible amount of money compared to what we're making off of him anyway. Do they do this? No.

What do they do?

They freeze my account, and stick me with a bill. A bill I can't even get a straight answer on the amount. I call in, and say, no, I won't pay. They say fine, you're still limited. So I call back, several days later, and say, "fine, I'll pay the $16 fee you said I owe in your email, just unfreeze my account please". They say, "no, actually, you owe $62, and until you pay THAT, you're limited". I say "okay, what assurance do you have that tomorrow you don't arbitrarily come up with a new number for me to pay, extorting even more money from me?"

"Well," they said, "we can offer no assurance. But until you pay, your account is limited". No bargaining, nothing. So I ask a supervisor to call.

A supervisor calls me back. She doesn't know what the hell is going on, is not authorized to unfreeze my account, change the fee, or even collect frigging payment!!! She doesn't even know what I owe them!!! "You'll have to speak to collection," she says. "Then why the f%@# did you call me back? Go f@#% yourselves" I said and slammed the phone down.

That's the last communication I had with them. I got online at better business bureau, and filed a complaint. The next step is writing my congressman.

Paypal is such a behemoth, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Not atypical for a large company. But they have such a GOD complex, they think they can operate with complete and total impunity, extorting unlimited amounts of money from untold numbers of clients. In my book, that makes them worse than any drug cartels. At least a drug dealer will not approach you today, and say "oh, I was conducting a records review, and remember that coke you bought seven years ago? well actually, I gave you half a gram too much, and until you pay me the $25 it was worth many many years ago, I won't sell you anymore". No, because unlike paypal, they know they are not GOD. They may be flawed, they may be violent, they may overcharge you, they provide a dangerous addictive substance that kills you. That's fine. They never claimed to be perfect. But not Paypal. No, not paypal. They are PERFECT, and you must be the perfect client for them to do business with them.

If you have any business sense, I urge you to stay away from Paypal. If you have any moral outrage, I urge you to complain to the better business bureau for injustices they no doubt would have committed against you had you joined their organization. For their impunity, they deserve to be reigned in. If you have a moment, write your senator or congressman and tell them that they must be put in check.

At the very least, if you join them, let me give you a warning---join at your own risk. You give them your most private information, your loyalty, your honesty, and ultimately share your money with them for doing business, and instead of rewarding your good deeds, they punish your mistakes. Stay the hell away from this parasitic company. And watch the papers. Some day, if I have my way, they will be put in check. They wil[/B]l be reigned in my Congress, or the appropriate federal organization.

[Keith K Stone]

Good luck Q. I've had over 900 transactions with paypal. No problems except the % they charge an ebay seller. If it happened to me, I may feel the same way about it. You never know until it happens to you.

[DB Dicey]

im a new paypal enrollee, have had 2 transactions with pay pal, both with clickremedy and my account was promptly hacked and fraudulent charges rung up. im keeping my acct frozen and not sure ill ever use it again.

[Gambit979]

And watch the papers. Some day, if I have my way, they will be put in check. They wil[/B]l be reigned in my Congress, or the appropriate federal organization.

You're right, they will be put in check. It won't be by the Government though but by the good old free market. Earlier this year the major credit card companies (Visa, MC, AMEX) introduced new services in the personal payment market designed to directly compete with paypal. Now several major banks have recently announced intentions to enter the fray as well: BoA, JPMorgan and Wells Fargo Jointly Enter the Personal Payment Market -- Trefis

I'm sure you won't be the only one that will enjoy watching paypal's dominance erode. I know many ebay sellers with similar complaints. Despite their flaws, these banks are still formidable entities and are fully capable of putting a dent in paypal.

[drboris]

On a related note -- if you ever see an OP offering PayPal be suspicious. If PayPal discovers any transactions are anything to do with pharmaceuticals, even non-controlled, they will seize all the funds they can from customers and the merchant.

The OP might be able to offer PayPal servrices on their website for a few weeks until PayPal notices, but when it does all of a sudden whoom! it will seize everythig it can and it's very difficult to get the funds back as a customer in that situtation, it takes months if ever.

[Lynx4]

That's why there are huge websites set up purely to convince people not to use Paypal. I don't remember the exact name of the one I used to read years ago, paypal sucks . com or something like that. I think there's an Ihatepaypal too. I used to read horror stories you wouldn't believe. If your account was linked to your checking account they would withdraw people's entire checking accounts and not return it. There's no good arbitration set up to get your money back so usually if they take it you are done for.

I've been a Paypal and ebay member for more than 10 years with no problems but everything I sold was in perfect condition and I used insurance and delivery confirmation just in case. Of course, when I first started using ebay it was more like a yard sale and now it's more like shopping at Neimans lol!

I hope you get your situation fixed, but in all honesty the only way they are going to unfreeze you is if you pay up, and even then you may find that you paid the fees and then they kick you off the site. What they have done to some of the power sellers is shameful and I don't know why it doesn't get the attention of newpapers and the nightly news. People lose thousands daily by having their accounts wiped out by Paypal and there's simply no recourse. Which is why I've chosen to only buy at ebay in the last few years instead of selling.

[Jeremy Fisher]

@QVC1212, I feel for you. Often customer service reps are not very bright. However, I was a customer service and technical support rep and so know what it was like on both sides.

If you want to get to someone who can unfreeze your account, you have to wear a headset (it's gonna take a while) and refuse to be called back, claiming you have all day. You should plan HOURS to resolve, and that is assuming you are in the right, which I think you are.

Once you get to the right person, I would nicely state your case and why you should not have to pay. If they disagree, I would agree to split it with them.

Sounds like maybe you should start w/collections. They have supervisors there too and make sure this is not affecting your credit.

I handle all of our family finances and have spent many hours on the phone to get a few bucks back, but sometimes, one needs to decide to write off a loss. Time is money.

And LOL at @Lynx4 w/her info on Paypalsucks . com website info. I am easily amused.

Dear QVC, don't let the man get you down.

Sincerely,

Fire

[Alternate]

I already do not like PayPal, but had to use it for only one transaction few years ago and have kept it with only $10.00 in it.

I will not buy/purchase etc. anything that only requires PayPal.

I also thought it was difficult to use.

Now am concerned that I should have closed it out - forgot as you mention QVC that they have such personal info on us.

Glad to find out banks are competing with them - did not know that.

Have you thought of doing a FaceBook page about them? Social media is so powerful now and that is being used more about issues people are concerned with. Many would be interested in what happened to you.

[olyomega]

Between paypal and the rising ebay fee's we should be seeing more competition in online marketplaces. Craigslist ftw. Also Bitcoin, if it survives.

[QVC1212]

@Alternate Using social media to extol the virtues of competing organizations such as alertpay while raising awareness of the unknown evil acts (or at least improper and inequitable acts) of paypal is an excellent idea! There is one group I joined already, called "I HATE PAYPAL" but it is scheduled to be archived soon, though I don't know why---it means members will have to be re-added. If you ask me paypal is aware of the people it has screwed over, how deep that hatred runs, and how much of a problem social media such as facebook could present for them if they don't clamp down right now.

@drboris also brought up an excellent point. Paypal seems to have the cyber equivalent of drug sniffer dogs---some sort of software that detects not only shady transactions but is also able to link it to pharmaceutical purchases. I have no idea how they are able to do so. They must have some sophisticated software. One thing I do know---my main vendor, the regular one I use on a regular basis, heretofore protected and safely anonymous, has made the mistake of using paypal in the past, and lost a lot of money. Now, keep in mind, that my regular vendor is extremely cautious, and wary of payment services like paypal. Yet somehow, in spite of my vendor's best efforts, they were able to discover the nature of their business. How? We will never know. I suspect it was just a single informant who was unhappy with a purchase. Because 99.9999% of the clients are very happy with the vendor, and will go to great lengths to protect it. You should never use paypal for pharmaceutical purchases. To do so paints a target on your back, and that of the seller. Have I used them anyway for such purchases? Yes. But it was stupid, and reckless, and I would never, ever do it again. If you know a single person who is selling, instead of a business, send cash in the mail inside aluminum foil. Or use alertpay. Or western union. But stay the hell away from Paypal. Once they decide to seize your money, it is non-negotiable. If they limit your account, it is NON-negotiable. It doesn't matter if it is a transaction from a dispute with ebay that is 11 years, that's right, 11 years, old. They don't care.

I will be working to change that. I have already filed with the better business bureau. I have the address of my Congressman and Senator in the area and am working on a letter right now to send them.

I recommend visiting the site screw-paypal.com which serves as a testament to the extent of the problem. It turns out, I am not alone. This has happened to many, many people. Others more tech-savvy and vindictive than I am have traced phone numbers and addresses and identified real people who work for paypal that you can harass (and I will soon be harassing them to have my so-called "debt" to them erased) via email, phone and snail mail. It shows how complicated their operation is. It even sells software which claims to let you dupe paypal and open a new account without their knowing it. I wouldn't spend the money on their software without knowing more about it, but I am definitely going to take advantage of the all the free phone numbers they have provided to call and complain about how they have taken advantage of me. The main problem is that no one you talk to through traditional means, i.e.-customer service or dispute/billing solutions, has the authority to wipe the slate clean, or even negotiate with you about a "debt" or "bill". These people listed on the website do.

Thank you to everyone for listening! Thank you for your support! It is encouraging. With any luck, the banks such as JPMorgan/Bank of America/Wells Fargo will give them competition and put a dent in them. With even more luck, Congress will act to limit their growing power in the market. At the very least, I will make them rue the day that they decided, out of the blue, arbitrarily, based on some new bogus software they rolled out, that I owed them money from a decade ago on another paypal account.

I am not usually this vindictive. But in my view, they burned this bridge, and as my good friend put it, "danced in its ashes". Soon, I will light a fire under them so great they cannot ignore it. Paypal is on a clock---but I have the rest of my life.

[Jolie]

@QVC1212, to play the devil's advocate, which I often am encouraged to do as a future lawyer in school, technically, you owe them money and they have the right to freeze your account. Literally in the middle of studying contracts for bar review and talking about debt. Once you acknowledge the debt, even after the statute of limitations (the amount of time they have to bring a claim before the claim is barred) expires, once you make any assurances to pay it, you're on the hook.

Also, as you used paypal to do your ebay transactions, they are technically legally bound to refund when ebay says so because you agree to all this stuff when you sign up for both ebay and paybal. Boilerplate contracts (ones where it's standard language and the consumer is basically forced to accept) suck and are unfair, but legally, they did nothing wrong. It's ebay that the gripe should be with. They did something similar to me where I sold an iPod shuffle and shipped it USPS and USPS lost it. The buyer won. That's a flaw in eBay itself.

Paypal can be annoying. Again time fittingly, I had an issue with them today. I have a CC with them and although I made a huge payment to pay off my card, they said I had no spending power and I had to deal with customer service and it took them awhile to help me because they wouldn't understand that the payment was made a week ago rather than today.

I also hate the fees they charge for sending money with a CC, even when it is a gift or a living expense.

However, I use paypal almost exclusively from money right now and not my bank account. I don't have an income so my fiance can send me money and I have a debit card I can use. My parents can also give me money too. I make so many purchases either using paypal or my debit card from them. I use my secret CC (hidden from fiance) to send WU. They really are fantastic for easily sending money back and forth.

Also, think of the benefits it's can provide you when you are the party that was "ripped off." They will fight for you to get your money back if something goes wrong with a sale non-ebay related. They have saved me $100s of dollars from being double charged or not refunded a return.

I do think they're seller fees are little ridiculous, but I guess it's a necessary evil.

[QVC1212]

@Jolie Good counterargument. My rebuttal would emphasize the fact that if I technically owed them the money, they should have discovered it when I opened another paypal account in 2009. That was the time they should have charged me. Their inaction, that is, their acting for two years as though nothing had happened is synonymous with forgiveness of that debt. They cannot arbitrarily, out of the blue, suddenly claim that I owe them money from seven years ago. They cannot claim they lacked the technical sophistication to discover that debt, since each time I provided my social security number and private information. While they may be technically correct in charging me the money, it is improper and inequitable for them to do so. My argument that it is improper is a little weaker---it stems more from the issue that it is a negligible amount of money from many years ago. But it is definitely inequitable, because the account holder has been acting in good faith, and opened the account in good faith, and has allowed paypal to profit already from my transactions. Suddenly sticking me with a bill is tantamount to betrayal. It is immoral, and unethical, and unduly favors this rich power-hungry company over the literally poor consumer who lacks the resources to argue the case.

Again, I'll compare this to the actions of a credit company. Let's say an account is charged off from seven years ago. If I go to open a new account with that same company, they are going to say "hold on, we recognize that social security number, and so until you settle this debt we are not going to allow you to re-open an account". And if they do allow you to re-open it, the actions of the past are forgiven---they are not going to suddenly decide, two years later, to charge you for this old bill. And even if it were charged two years later, the amount in question would be open for negotiation. Why? Because it is reasonable and moral business practice.

Paypal is standing on principle, the principle that they are perfect. They are entitled to every cent owed to them. The problem with that argument is that they cannot hold their client to a standard of perfection (every cent owed to them is owed to them, beyond any reasonable settlement or negotiation) if they are not perfect themselves. They failed to discover the debt in 2009. They failed over two years to discover the debt. And when they did discover it, they did not agree to any reasonable negotiation.

Maybe the law says they are entitled to do so. But my argument is that their business practices are inequitable. In fact, they are predatory and warrant investigation. That's why I have written to the president of the company, filed a complaint with the better business bureau, the SEC, the FTC, and my congressional representatives.

You take their side because you have not yet been wronged by their company. But the moment you make a mistake and Paypal capitalizes on your imperfect actions, you will reverse your position, trust me.

[Troubadour]

@QVC1212 I get what you say about PP. Because most ebay companies use them as their main form of payment, PP kind of dangles it over your head (screw up and kiss your @$$ goodbye). I once had to actually send them money even thought I had a c/c attached to it with a high balance just to keep them from giving me a waxing. I think PP is touchy much more than AP.

[cajunbulldog]

I have used Paypal rarely and yes they are Communist in their dealings especially with Ebay.

[Keith K Stone]

Seeing as PayPal is owned by ebay i would imagine that they are in cahoots. If your an ebay seller not only do you pay ebay fees , you also pay, PayPal fees on top of that to receive your payment. I know I just love to get it stuck to me not only once, but twice, And then some.What a world we live in!

[Stevo1]

@QVC1212 I agree with you that PayPal is definitely out of line to do what they did to you.
I wish you the Best...But I think you are gonna loose this battle like the rest of the folks that have been wronged by PP.

Doesn't Ebay own Paypal?

[QVC1212]

@Stevo1 Thanks for the encouragement. You are right, it is a battle I am destined to lose. Which is why I haven't invested anything emotionally in it, except the initial shock and anger. They didn't take any money from me, and they promised they won't after a lot of haranguing and harassing of their supervisors. Even if they do go into my bank account and withdraw money, I've got a dispute form from the bank all ready to go with names/dates/times of conversations of paypal so that I can get it back. The only way I can protect my money for sure is to close my checking account (not that there is much in there anyway, LOL) but I don't think there is any immediate danger---my paypal account is still showing a zero balance, albeit with a limitation. I think if they were going to go into the bank account and take out money, they would first place my paypal balance in the negative. Right now it's just frozen, and that's fine with me. Anything I did before with paypal I can do just as easily with cash in the mail. Since the people I do business with trust me, it's just as fast. I plan on keeping that trust too. No more burning bridges.

But this bridge is one paypal has burned, not me, and as a good friend of mine said to me, they "danced in its ashes".

I'd be shocked if they unfroze the account without throwing a lot of money at them. I just had some free time so I thought it'd be a nice parting gift for them to have a new better business bureau complaint, a new SEC complaint, a new FTC complaint, a new complaint to the State Attorney General Office of Consumer Protection Division, and letters to my congressional representatives. I think the odds are in my favor that at least one of these organizations or people stirs up the pot a little bit and pisses them off. Oh, and I wrote Paypal's president with a list of all my complaints and to whom, to cap it all off.

Do I have too much time on my hands? Yes, at the moment. Too much time and too little money.

Not sure if Ebay owns paypal. They're heavily invested in each other though, that's for sure.

[Jolie]

@QVC1212, thanks for appreciating my counterargument and not freaking out on me. It was a breath a of fresh air. A board where you can present differing opinions, opinions you don't necessarily hold as your own, without getting torn apart, fed to the wolves, and banned.

Also, you've got balls and I like it. I'm glad you took some action. You'll probably get at least something small about it. It's time people take a stand for themselves!

No where near the same situation, but I found a string in my Lindy's italian ice. It was weird and off-putting, but not really gross or even dangerous because it was thick and big and no way you could swallow it. However, I said this isn't right. Snapped a pic, e-mailed the company and they offered to pay to have my ship them the string and the box it came in so they could inspect the machinery used on the batch etc etc etc. Too bad I threw it away. That wasn't it though, they also sent me a letter on top of the e-mail and included a whole lot of coupons, at least 30. Got tons of free boxes, buy one get one free, and money off.

Moral of the story, sometimes just speaking up pays off!

Next e-mail tirade is to Bliss Spa's consumer products division, their bikini trimmer took a chunk out of some delicate underparts........ but's that a story for another day LOL. Just happened yesterday, but I'm proud with myself that my first instinct was to say something about it because I usually say oh well, nothing I can do.

Good luck and I hope they drop their claim!

@Keith K Stone, I never put two and two together before...Bastards!

Also, another name change? A man of mystery you are!

[Lynx4]

You don't get hit with fees twice, you really get hit three or four times.

1. When you list an item at ebay you pay a fee.

2. Want more than one picture? That's gonna cost you buddy. Either ebay is going to charge you a per picture fee, or you can join a site where you can upload pictures and that site is going to charge you a monthly fee to use them.

3. When the item sells you pay a percentage of that sale to ebay.

4. The winning bidder uses Paypal. A percentage (used to be .15 cents plus 3%) is taken from you.

It's quite a system of fees and it could be worse now, I just don't know because I stopped selling. It was too much of a hassle . I wouldn't be surprised if ebay/Paypal had a hand in the picture sites too,. I found it crazy and chose to use the site to buy items I need and can't find elsewhere.

And yeah, ebay bought Paypal several years ago when I was still selling. With their monthly changes on Terms of Service that are a hundred pages long you don't know what you're agreeing to and with a husband who's an attorney I'm just not that stupid.

I'd love to find a site where I can sell items that are new and unused without the huge hassle and expense of the ebay/Paypal model.

[islode]

ebay has been having more "list it for free" sales. they get money all around so they can take the hit. when i did try to sale a phone and they had "list it for free and "use bid now for free" i got hit with a scammer. ebay told me but that was my last attempt. the profit margin is not there unless the item is really old or really new.

You don't get hit with fees twice, you really get hit three or four times.

1. When you list an item at ebay you pay a fee.

2. Want more than one picture? That's gonna cost you buddy. Either ebay is going to charge you a per picture fee, or you can join a site where you can upload pictures and that site is going to charge you a monthly fee to use them.

3. When the item sells you pay a percentage of that sale to ebay.

4. The winning bidder uses Paypal. A percentage (used to be .15 cents plus 3%) is taken from you.

It's quite a system of fees and it could be worse now, I just don't know because I stopped selling. It was too much of a hassle . I wouldn't be surprised if ebay/Paypal had a hand in the picture sites too,. I found it crazy and chose to use the site to buy items I need and can't find elsewhere.

And yeah, ebay bought Paypal several years ago when I was still selling. With their monthly changes on Terms of Service that are a hundred pages long you don't know what you're agreeing to and with a husband who's an attorney I'm just not that stupid.

I'd love to find a site where I can sell items that are new and unused without the huge hassle and expense of the ebay/Paypal model.